What is the effect of light on Palythoa and their zooxanthellae?

[cherith]

What does it mean when my palythoa were once wide open and their zooxanthellae seemed to be returning—but now they are open only medium-to-small wide and there is a only a narrow ring of zooxanthellae around their mouths,

 

[Spare time]

That coloration isn't their zooxanthellae (if I am correct). These paly's are weird, I have them and they basically lost that ring.

 

[cherith]

That coloration isn't their zooxanthellae (if I am correct). These paly's are weird, I have them and they basically lost that ring.

This is what they looked like when I first brought them home:

 

[Spare time]

This is what they looked like when I first brought them home:

I really wonder why that center ring changes color. Like I said, that center ring is barely there anymore on mine.

 

[cherith]

I really wonder why that center ring changes color. Like I said, that center ring is barely there anymore on mine.

My water has varied in salinity. As I said, I’m new and I’ve made mistakes reading my monitoring equipment. My chemistry is good every time I go to the local aquarium people to double check myself. The only thing that is out of control is the lighting. I can’t vouch for anything with my lights because I haven’t a clue what the PAR readings are. What time periods are best for my guys in there. Even my Dottieback is acting weird. I think she is on her way out too.

 

[A. grandis]

Those are some of the deformities that LEDs provoke to most cnidarians. Lack of actual proper light qualities to represent the sun effects in the ocean, like real representation of full spectrum (from UV to IR), ideal intensity, and the distribution and delivery of photons with the right application.
You could get them a little better offering a "whiter" spectrum under your LEDs, but never back to their natural look!
It's a normal problem keeping hard corals too... but people just got used to the different types of results LEDs provide and the reflection of their "blues and violets"... The priorities of hobbyists today are related to those "green ideas" and aesthetics instead of trying to present what those animals receive in nature! They forget they are animals and need proper light to be able to live as they were living in the ocean! Some cases are more evident than others.
The vendors need to "pop" their colors under blue light to be able to make their big profit, cause that's what the consumers want! It has been well preached that metal halides and T5s are from the past. "Dead technology". That is the main reason why we don't see much halide gear for sale today! The customers need to feel good posting those weird colors on Instagram and Face Book, so... It's the new wrong way to keep zoas, anemones and corals. Colony structure and pigment formations are terrible under LEDs IME. The longer the animals are under LEDs, the longer they will need to adapt back to their natural look under T5s and/or metal halides. That is just the way it is! They do great under T5s only! They do basically amazing under metal halides/T5s IME.
That weird stuff you see under LEDs doesn't happen under T5s and metal halides!
That is the main reason why I never use LEDs in any of my home systems!
The polyps you have, look very different in the ocean! They are robust and wide. They can live in an inch of water and be exposed to full midday sunlight during extra low tide for hours in the tropics!!!! Sometimes they occupy a huge area over the reef! Their natural growth rate is stupendous! Their growth can be controlled in a system under metal halides and T5s, but they still grow very fast because their natural growth rate is fast! Period!
They are struggling in your system, and should look something like this:

I've been posting about this subject for more than a decade and people ignoring me... It's a shame what this hobby is doing to the organisms we keep in terms of light today!
All I had to say is above.. not getting into discussions about facts of lighting, cause it is in the end mostly about what is available now and personal preferences anyways!
But the results are the proof, and we choose what we want to. Just don't complain about the results, please.

 

[Klyle]

Changes in lighting have definitely affected my palys

 

[cherith]

Those are some of the deformities that LEDs provoke to most cnidarians. Lack of actual proper light qualities to represent the sun effects in the ocean, like real representation of full spectrum (from UV to IR), ideal intensity, and the distribution and delivery of photons with the right application.
You could get them a little better offering a "whiter" spectrum under your LEDs, but never back to their natural look!
It's a normal problem keeping hard corals too... but people just got used to the different types of results LEDs provide and the reflection of their "blues and violets"... The priorities of hobbyists today are related to those "green ideas" and aesthetics instead of trying to present what those animals receive in nature! They forget they are animals and need proper light to be able to live as they were living in the ocean! Some cases are more evident than others.
The vendors need to "pop" their colors under blue light to be able to make their big profit, cause that's what the consumers want! It has been well preached that metal halides and T5s are from the past. "Dead technology". That is the main reason why we don't see much halide gear for sale today! The customers need to feel good posting those weird colors on Instagram and Face Book, so... It's the new wrong way to keep zoas, anemones and corals. Colony structure and pigment formations are terrible under LEDs IME. The longer the animals are under LEDs, the longer they will need to adapt back to their natural look under T5s and/or metal halides. That is just the way it is! They do great under T5s only! They do basically amazing under metal halides/T5s IME.
That weird stuff you see under LEDs doesn't happen under T5s and metal halides!
That is the main reason why I never use LEDs in any of my home systems!
The polyps you have, look very different in the ocean! They are robust and wide. They can live in an inch of water and be exposed to full midday sunlight during extra low tide for hours in the tropics!!!! Sometimes they occupy a huge area over the reef! Their natural growth rate is stupendous! Their growth can be controlled in a system under metal halides and T5s, but they still grow very fast because their natural growth rate is fast! Period!
They are struggling in your system, and should look something like this:

I've been posting about this subject for more than a decade and people ignoring me... It's a shame what this hobby is doing to the organisms we keep in terms of light today!
All I had to say is above.. not getting into discussions about facts of lighting, cause it is in the end mostly about what is available now and personal preferences anyways!
But the results are the proof, and we choose what we want to. Just don't complain about the results, please.

Well, I never intended to buy a blue light. It came from China and the guy slipped me a blue instead of a non-blue as I ordered. He assured me both models had the same spectrum, and I could adjust it. He gave me a substantial discount just to keep it so I did.

However I don’t know how to adjust it or what would be the best settings. I guess the LEDs have taken over the market due to the fact more poor people are picking up the hobby and don’t have money for extra power consumption in their homes or expensive lights. I was never warned about these lights…and due to cost, I’m constrained to use them! Thanks so much for your input. Blue is not my thing, I’ve just been told corals like it! I’m not a bling kind of girl at all! But if this is the price I pay for being poor and uneducated, oh well. I also believe in accepting consequences! I’ll try to watch the video on YouTube. It won’t play on my phone.

 

[Klyle]

Well, I never intended to buy a blue light. It came from China and the guy slipped me a blue instead of a non-blue as I ordered. He assured me both models had the same spectrum, and I could adjust it. He gave me a substantial discount just to keep it so I did.

However I don’t know how to adjust it or what would be the best settings. I guess the LEDs have taken over the market due to the fact more poor people are picking up the hobby and don’t have money for extra power consumption in their homes or expensive lights. I was never warned about these lights…and due to cost, I’m constrained to use them! Thanks so much for your input. Blue is not my thing, I’ve just been told corals like it! I’m not a bling kind of girl at all! But if this is the price I pay for being poor and uneducated, oh well. I also believe in accepting consequences! I’ll try to watch the video on YouTube. It won’t play on my phone.

You can get cheaper led’s that have a whiter spectrum. Just make sure it’s for corals!

 

[A. grandis]

Well, I never intended to buy a blue light. It came from China and the guy slipped me a blue instead of a non-blue as I ordered. He assured me both models had the same spectrum, and I could adjust it. He gave me a substantial discount just to keep it so I did.

However I don’t know how to adjust it or what would be the best settings. I guess the LEDs have taken over the market due to the fact more poor people are picking up the hobby and don’t have money for extra power consumption in their homes or expensive lights. I was never warned about these lights…and due to cost, I’m constrained to use them! Thanks so much for your input. Blue is not my thing, I’ve just been told corals like it! I’m not a bling kind of girl at all! But if this is the price I pay for being poor and uneducated, oh well. I also believe in accepting consequences! I’ll try to watch the video on YouTube. It won’t play on my phone.

It's not your fault. It's what has been pushed to all of us from this money hungry market! They give LED fixtures for free or under a significant discount to the famous hobbyists to promote their products! They sponsor YouTube channel... they took over and the blue's are preached because the vendors can sell the "fluorescence" of the corals for a huge amount of money, compared to what they could get under normal "whiter" spectrum! Not your fault! I just had to vent a little, cause I went through the same problems when I tried LEDs and see that all the time!
My signature has the web address for my video.

 

[A. grandis]

You can get cheaper led’s that have a whiter spectrum. Just make sure it’s for corals!

Yes, the one of the best deals are those Chinese black boxes. better than many other branded LEDs indeed!!! Still LEDs. I've also tried them! The zoas will grow weird under those as well... Acceptable, not optimal. It's a matter of choice, availability and personal preference though.

 

[cherith]

Changes in lighting have definitely affected my palys

And maybe a UV bulb? Mine doesn’t have that.

 

[Alexraptor]

Those are some of the deformities that LEDs provoke to most cnidarians. Lack of actual proper light qualities to represent the sun effects in the ocean, like real representation of full spectrum (from UV to IR), ideal intensity, and the distribution and delivery of photons with the right application.
You could get them a little better offering a "whiter" spectrum under your LEDs, but never back to their natural look!
It's a normal problem keeping hard corals too... but people just got used to the different types of results LEDs provide and the reflection of their "blues and violets"... The priorities of hobbyists today are related to those "green ideas" and aesthetics instead of trying to present what those animals receive in nature! They forget they are animals and need proper light to be able to live as they were living in the ocean! Some cases are more evident than others.
The vendors need to "pop" their colors under blue light to be able to make their big profit, cause that's what the consumers want! It has been well preached that metal halides and T5s are from the past. "Dead technology". That is the main reason why we don't see much halide gear for sale today! The customers need to feel good posting those weird colors on Instagram and Face Book, so... It's the new wrong way to keep zoas, anemones and corals. Colony structure and pigment formations are terrible under LEDs IME. The longer the animals are under LEDs, the longer they will need to adapt back to their natural look under T5s and/or metal halides. That is just the way it is! They do great under T5s only! They do basically amazing under metal halides/T5s IME.
That weird stuff you see under LEDs doesn't happen under T5s and metal halides!
That is the main reason why I never use LEDs in any of my home systems!
The polyps you have, look very different in the ocean! They are robust and wide. They can live in an inch of water and be exposed to full midday sunlight during extra low tide for hours in the tropics!!!! Sometimes they occupy a huge area over the reef! Their natural growth rate is stupendous! Their growth can be controlled in a system under metal halides and T5s, but they still grow very fast because their natural growth rate is fast! Period!
They are struggling in your system, and should look something like this:

I've been posting about this subject for more than a decade and people ignoring me... It's a shame what this hobby is doing to the organisms we keep in terms of light today!
All I had to say is above.. not getting into discussions about facts of lighting, cause it is in the end mostly about what is available now and personal preferences anyways!
But the results are the proof, and we choose what we want to. Just don't complain about the results, please.

I'm in complete agreement. I actually have my tanks situatuated so that their all getting direct sunlight some time of the year. And I always go white with my reef lighting instead of blue, I just don't find it appealing.

These zoas caused me A LOT of grief some years back, when I first started exposing my, then only, tank to sunlight. They simply exploded and spread like wildfire and I simply couldn't contain them.

 

[A. grandis]

And maybe a UV bulb? Mine doesn’t have that.

"UV bulb" will not substitute a real full spectrum, or a representation of it. Besides, using any UV bulb, like those used for reptiles, will be a negative addition to any system because it will actually act as a very negative in balance of wavelengths in the majority of cases. The biggest mistake today is to talk about the "importance" of UV light in the hobby, as the addition of any UV would do a magical change. Wrong! UV in a balanced spectrum will be beneficial and even used for photosynthesis. The real full spectrum, or at least the best representation from a metal halide bulb, will make a huge difference! Best metal halide bulb? The 6500K bulb, but all metal halide bulbs will offer the spectrum from UV to IR. It's the whole sectrum that makes the difference, when it is properly applied for that system. Even T5s will give you some usable UV!!

 

[cherith]

"UV bulb" will not substitute a real full spectrum, or a representation of it. Besides, using any UV bulb, like those used for reptiles, will be a negative addition to any system because it will actually act as a very negative in balance of wavelengths in the majority of cases. The biggest mistake today is to talk about the "importance" of UV light in the hobby, as the addition of any UV would do a magical change. Wrong! UV in a balanced spectrum will be beneficial and even used for photosynthesis. The real full spectrum, or at least the best representation from a metal halide bulb, will make a huge difference! Best metal halide bulb? The 6500K bulb, but all metal halide bulbs will offer the spectrum from UV to IR. It's the whole sectrum that makes the difference, when it is properly applied for that system. Even T5s will give you some usable UV!!

See what I mean: I have a long way to go to understand lighting.

 

[A. grandis]

See what I mean: I have a long way to go to understand lighting.

Again, not your fault... even many of the famous authors have been accepting LEDs as a decent way to keep reef tanks. And it is, within it's limits. Again, their priorities and excuses are "less heat", "less electricity", "controllability", aesthetics, etc... but not an optimal choice for actual light qualities!
Some try to proof using science against practical results. The truth is that science can be used to sustain almost anything we want, if papers are available to sustain such claims. Simply because science papers are isolated studies most of the time limited by the boundaries in those studies. People use spectral graphics from LED companies, for example. They also use lots of UV papers to proof how "bad" UV can be for corals! Again, practical experiences will overrule isolated studies. The studies should be used to explain what really happens, and not the other way around!!
Friendships, sponsors, marketing are what dictate what we see today. "New technology", "advanced", "awesome colors", and "efficient" are some of the adjectives used to spread the news... What LED marketing have been planted for a long time is to eradicate metal halides and T5s out off the equation with strategic YouTube videos and LED propaganda! People have embraced their seeds really well and happily spread those seeds to the next generation. Confirmation bias is the major emotional action in the game too! After people spending so much on those LED$, it's understandable that they would need that affirmation!! Anyways.. All part of this huge circus we have today!
BUT...
Some LEDs will certainly maintain the animals in better conditions... it will be way more expensive than initial suggested applications because of the number of fixtures, and the wattage used will certainly be much higher than it would be with proper halide/T5 fixtures. The best famous example is Dr. Sanjay's system. He is using more wattage with LEDs than he used with his amazing metal halide reflectors. Results will still be different.
Most people in this forum will ignore the things I just published here and probably call me a "hater". They will just go back to their lives and know that in a day or 2 these lines will pass to the next page and it will be just one more "rant". Then they will continuing discussing about the problems they find with their LEDs.
I don't hate LEDs per say... I just expose the lies preached by it's marketing. And most of my friends use LEDs and I certainly don't hate them, of course! They will achieve the results for their personal preferences. Everyone has their own opinions and their experiences. We all choose what we want to, and I respect that!
Well... I got excited about this thread because I have experiences with zoanthids for almost 3 decades and my goal is always to reproduce what I see in the ocean. I just found metal halides and/or T5s to help me achieve the optimal results an artificial light can provide over my systems, and this is my personal preference.

 

[cherith]

Again, not your fault... even many of the famous authors have been accepting LEDs as a decent way to keep reef tanks. And it is, within it's limits. Again, their priorities and excuses are "less heat", "less electricity", "controllability", aesthetics, etc... but not an optimal choice for actual light qualities!
Some try to proof using science against practical results. The truth is that science can be used to sustain almost anything we want, if papers are available to sustain such claims. Simply because science papers are isolated studies most of the time limited by the boundaries in those studies. People use spectral graphics from LED companies, for example. They also use lots of UV papers to proof how "bad" UV can be for corals! Again, practical experiences will overrule isolated studies. The studies should be used to explain what really happens, and not the other way around!!
Friendships, sponsors, marketing are what dictate what we see today. "New technology", "advanced", "awesome colors", and "efficient" are some of the adjectives used to spread the news... What LED marketing have been planted for a long time is to eradicate metal halides and T5s out off the equation with strategic YouTube videos and LED propaganda! People have embraced their seeds really well and happily spread those seeds to the next generation. Confirmation bias is the major emotional action in the game too! After people spending so much on those LED$, it's understandable that they would need that affirmation!! Anyways.. All part of this huge circus we have today!
BUT...
Some LEDs will certainly maintain the animals in better conditions... it will be way more expensive than initial suggested applications because of the number of fixtures, and the wattage used will certainly be much higher than it would be with proper halide/T5 fixtures. The best famous example is Dr. Sanjay's system. He is using more wattage with LEDs than he used with his amazing metal halide reflectors. Results will still be different.
Most people in this forum will ignore the things I just published here and probably call me a "hater". They will just go back to their lives and know that in a day or 2 these lines will pass to the next page and it will be just one more "rant". Then they will continuing discussing about the problems they find with their LEDs.
I don't hate LEDs per say... I just expose the lies preached by it's marketing. And most of my friends use LEDs and I certainly don't hate them, of course! They will achieve the results for their personal preferences. Everyone has their own opinions and their experiences. We all choose what we want to, and I respect that!
Well... I got excited about this thread because I have experiences with zoanthids for almost 3 decades and my goal is always to reproduce what I see in the ocean. I just found metal halides and/or T5s to help me achieve the optimal results an artificial light can provide over my systems, and this is my personal preference.

Listen, nobody loves a good argument than I do—especially to explore the bases of credibility for experts. I’m a retired criminal defense attorney and spent my career attacking the “powers that be”. Only by examining how they came to their conclusions can we arrive at the truth or reasonable doubt thereof! Love it!!

 

[cherith]

I'm in complete agreement. I actually have my tanks situatuated so that their all getting direct sunlight some time of the year. And I always go white with my reef lighting instead of blue, I just don't find it appealing.

These zoas caused me A LOT of grief some years back, when I first started exposing my, then only, tank to sunlight. They simply exploded and spread like wildfire and I simply couldn't contain them.

I would love to move my tank to cozy up to a window, but at this point I’m not ready to go through the hassle. I can’t imagine what would happen to the rocks and critters inside to break it down right now. At least it’s now under three skylights, which don’t let in that much sun, but enough to cause an algae bloom in my Biosphere, to bleach my wood floor around the rug and to bleach the rug and furniture. The place was so dark when we moved in, I knocked out two windows, put in two French doors instead and the three skylights. Turning on lights during the day absolutely kills me!

I just need to keep on studying lighting. I’ll be moving the tank to LA in a year or so for my grandson, and we’ll try to pick a window to set it near. So far, I’ve kept it a two-sided tank—it’s important to see both sides to get the full effect!

Thanks for the info! .

 

[vetteguy53081]

What does it mean when my palythoa were once wide open and their zooxanthellae seemed to be returning—but now they are open only medium-to-small wide and there is a only a narrow ring of zooxanthellae around their mouths,

Mine are under medium intensity

 

[A. grandis]

By the way, it's a great thread to remind us that Palythoa spp. are the ones that could be the most toxic (Palytoxin) of all zoanthis in this world! All types of zoanthids could have a significant amount of palytoxin, but Palythoa spp. are notorious for being more prompt to produce serious dangerous quantities.
Be very careful while handling those organisms. They have a thick mucus and are known to kill fishes and other pets, when miss handled. There are many examples of people loosing their vision and having other serious symptoms, having to go to ER! There were cases that the Palythoa colony was many years in the system and one day it started to release the toxin in the water!!! It also happened to me!
Please do a search about palytoxin to know more about the safety requirements!!! Basically use gloves, goggles and close your mouth while handling any zoanthids! Clean all tools used to frag them or holding containers! Clean very well the place after handling them!! Make sure no children, nor pets will be around while handling them! Take it seriously!!!! Notify anyone around you about the danger! Any zoanthids species can contain the toxin to very high levels!
I love zoanthids, but one of the biggest mistakes in this hobby is the fact that the great majority of vendors don't advise their customers about palytoxin! For that reason alone I think Palythoa spp. shouldn't be commercialized as a normal organism for home aquariums!