By: Harry
- 17th January 2006 at 04:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fulcrum pilots generally don't consider F-16 as a real threat in close scenario.. Our pilots found F-16As from Benelux as much better suited for dogfights than regular F-16Cs. As far more dangerous knife fighters were evaluated Mirage 2000Cs. The ratio on first approach was almost 1:1.. Second approach did not look that good anymore, Mirages lose energy rather quickly..
A good point but never goes expounded. This is because the F-16A is the only version that has negative static stability (-0.02 SM ) whereas the F-16C actually is a stable aircraft with a static margin of +0.01 in subsonic and +0.26 in supersonic. The F-16C would naturally be easy meat for the MiG-29. Interestingly, the newer MiG-29M/K went the FBW way and if are pitch unstable, are even better.
All Mirage-2000 versions have negative static stability. They have to use ITR to their advantage and are extremely dangerous if allowed to do so and not spotted early. The MiG-29s can tear through them but their smoky engine gives them away and a highly trained pilot can spot them at almost 37 km away.
IAF MiG-29s had plenty of initial problems and had to go through several indigenous modifications after which they became top of the line. Their BVR capability is respected by all fighters which have DACT'ed against them. The problem is that they were never multirole, did'nt get the upgrade blocks of other contemporaries such as the F-16 and the newer versions did'nt find customers until recently.
Lets all not ignore the confirmed F-14A kill by an Iraqi MiG-29 during IPGW. Moldovian aircraft were also reportedly downed by MiG-29s. Their locks of F-16s during Kargil and an F-15 during IIPGW are also well known.
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By: flex297
- 17th January 2006 at 09:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A good point but never goes expounded. This is because the F-16A is the only version that has negative static stability (-0.02 SM ) whereas the F-16C actually is a stable aircraft with a static margin of +0.01 in subsonic and +0.26 in supersonic. The F-16C would naturally be easy meat for the MiG-29. Interestingly, the newer MiG-29M/K went the FBW way and if are pitch unstable, are even better.
All Mirage-2000 versions have negative static stability. They have to use ITR to their advantage and are extremely dangerous if allowed to do so and not spotted early. The MiG-29s can tear through them but their smoky engine gives them away and a highly trained pilot can spot them at almost 37 km away.
IAF MiG-29s had plenty of initial problems and had to go through several indigenous modifications after which they became top of the line. Their BVR capability is respected by all fighters which have DACT'ed against them. The problem is that they were never multirole, did'nt get the upgrade blocks of other contemporaries such as the F-16 and the newer versions did'nt find customers until recently.
Lets all not ignore the confirmed F-14A kill by an Iraqi MiG-29 during IPGW. Moldovian aircraft were also reportedly downed by MiG-29s. Their locks of F-16s during Kargil and an F-15 during IIPGW are also well known.
Great to see how my claims gained from the pilots turn into technical arguments.. At least I know they were speaking truth! ;)
I have never heard of any F-14 kill by MiG-29. Do you have a source?
By: martinez
- 17th January 2006 at 09:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The last new built MiG-29s are 15 years old now. When stored in the open, which is typical for Russia, that will eats into life-time considerably too. The commander of Liptezk admitted, that this shortened the lifetime considerably, despite designed that harsh climate at mind. Operated and stored in good shelters is the most cost effective way to prolong the life of a "new" MiG-29.
"The lifetime can be extended without any problem, but only under approval of the RSK MIG."
"Without any problem" does not mean without money for that. All spare parts and related depot-maintenance have to be bought by/via RSK to keep the warranty.
40 years translates into 4000 hours or 100 hours per year, what ever will be reached first.
Zero hour conditions, does not mean a new aircraft. It just means, that a well maintained and sheltered MiG-29 may reach those overall limits given after such work in total at best.
The Lipetsk is one of the largest training centers in Russia with at least ten different type of aircrafts. That`s impossible to have a climatized shelter for each one and do not even think about it by a current AF budget. Some aircrafts have to be stored open. During a long stays or when the aircraft is out of service, the engines, gear-boxes, undercarriage, other moving parts should be conserved properly with oil and aircraft stored under a tarp. If maintained properly there aren`t problems with a harsh climate.
The commander of Lipetsk is of course aware that due to lack of funds, the maintenance has not always been sufficient, so while pointing at the "climate problem" he is probably trying to milden the fact that he wasn`t able to take care of his aircrafts.
"Without any problem" means that the airframe lifetime has large margins, thus the lifetime can be extended twice, three times,......
By: Schorsch
- 17th January 2006 at 09:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In the articlke you learn that one the experienced former Eastern German pilots even was killed by an F-4F Phantom in a dogfight.
Please don't overuse this example. Areal combat is somehow a statistical thing and single examples don't prove anything (unfortunately something only few people understand). It just proves that it is possible.
I just wanted to underline that argueing on the stability margin and concluding that the less stable aircraft will surely win is BS. But I wrote that so many times and I am not in this forum for a long time.
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By: flex297
- 17th January 2006 at 10:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If you do not mind I`ll post here so that anyone can see what a modernization of the mig-29 a second- or third-world-country may afford. :D
The modernization package includes the AN/APX-113(v) Advanced Identification Friend or Foe system delivered from Bae, the AN/ARC-210 Multimode Integrated Communications System, the AN/ARN-153V Advanced Digital TACAN and the AN/ARN-147V VOR/ILS/GS/MB receiver System delivered from Rockwell Collins. The MFI-54 display was added instead of the IPV indicator and the PUS-29 configuration display is located directly above the HUD controls. These were delivered by the Russkaya Avionika company. New control instruments were added to the right and left horizontal cockpit panel. The new avionics and navigation package runs on the MIL-STD-1553B databus, there is also new digital video HUD camera instead of old FKP gun-camera and new built-in diagnostic system to ease maintenance.
Looks like utterly little for 220 mil SKK per one aircraft to me.. Espcially during the era of a weak dollar.. Geez, for ten million dollars I would really expect at least radar upgrade! How come is that? Full spec SMT upgrade goes for slightly over $4 mil, IIRC.
By: Sens
- 17th January 2006 at 10:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Lipetsk is one of the largest training centers in Russia with at least ten different type of aircrafts. That`s impossible to have a climatized shelter for each one and do not even think about it by a current AF budget. Some aircrafts have to be stored open. During a long stays or when the aircraft is out of service, the engines, gear-boxes, undercarriage, other moving parts should be conserved properly with oil and aircraft stored under a tarp. If maintained properly there aren`t problems with a harsh climate.
The commander of Lipetsk is of course aware that due to lack of funds, the maintenance has not always been sufficient, so while pointing at the "climate problem" he is probably trying to milden the fact that he wasn`t able to take care of his aircrafts.
"Without any problem" means that the airframe lifetime has large margins, thus the lifetime can be extended twice, three times,......
At least here we agree some way. We keep in mind, that Lipetzk was/is one of the better airfields and not in Sibiria. The max allowed technical lifetime by RSK for the MiG-29 stays at 4000 hours and 40 years in total. This include the changeover of many items already. Each of it had a specified lifetime to start from. When prolonged, it has to gain a new certification at first. That is not done for most, so you are still in need to replace it several times to reach the max allowed for the MiG-29 fuselage. When the production of new MiG-29s for India will start, items with a longer specified lifetime will come into use too. But this are no longer "cheap" SH examples with some upgrades to reach the "common" standard.
By: Pit
- 17th January 2006 at 15:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IAF MiG-29s had plenty of initial problems and had to go through several indigenous modifications after which they became top of the line. Their BVR capability is respected by all fighters which have DACT'ed against them. The problem is that they were never multirole, did'nt get the upgrade blocks of other contemporaries such as the F-16 and the newer versions did'nt find customers until recently.
Harry:
I assume:
R-77 capability
New Indian RWR (please! post the pic again? same as for Su-30MKI?)...
What else?, GPS?, new comms?, ICAO-II certification equipment?...
By: Pit
- 17th January 2006 at 15:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In the articlke you learn that one the experienced former Eastern German pilots even was killed by an F-4F Phantom in a dogfight.
Those were not trained even at soviet standard of ACM and BVR combat tactics and came from MiG-21M units...
Soviet trained air forces were very conservative in ACM training and lot of other things...situation was changing during mid-to late 80s, but disolution of USSR and burocrating environment never allowed full reforms to come afloat at a doctrinal (and not level-wise) sense...
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By: flex297
- 17th January 2006 at 15:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Harry:
I assume:
R-77 capability
New Indian RWR (please! post the pic again? same as for Su-30MKI?)...
What else?, GPS?, new comms?, ICAO-II certification equipment?...
By: Sens
- 17th January 2006 at 15:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Those were not trained even at soviet standard of ACM and BVR combat tactics and came from MiG-21M units...
Soviet trained air forces were very conservative in ACM training and lot of other things...situation was changing during mid-to late 80s, but disolution of USSR and burocrating environment never allowed full reforms to come afloat at a doctrinal (and not level-wise) sense...
Wrong. Despite that, only the best ex. GDR pilots were kept. From several hundreds just a few dozen!
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By: flex297
- 17th January 2006 at 15:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wrong. Despite that, only the best ex. GDR pilots were kept. From several hundreds just a few dozen!
Absolute nonsense.. The pilot skills alone were never considered very important.. Main aspect was ability to learn.. The ex-GDR pilots were given a crash course in English and Western standards and teamwork and after that the most successful dozen were left through.
Potential to speak English fluently, absorb new methodology quickly and empathy towards new colleagues has obviously little to do with flying skills. Therefore, your 'best ex-GDR pilots' claim is totally misleading.
Source - Official Magazine of Bundeswehr - Infopost, (probably from 1995). Don't make me dig thru my old mags to get the exact issue..
By: Pit
- 17th January 2006 at 16:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, but those were "the best that surpassed and adapted to western methodology of ACM and Western tactics and fly methods", not "the best pilots out there"...
And my statement is not wrong from the because Zube (Andreas Zube the pilot that comment he was shot down by F-4F during ACM) told that BEFORE he went into western style ACM methods and so...
And those EG drivers were not up to task compared to lots of Soviet pilots that in some cases flew a lot more (150 hours or more) that asisted every 1.5 years to Mary Combat Training Center (for all FA fighter units) and that lived in an environment that was trying to "wake up" and introduced a lot of doctrinal reforms, but was never completed due to burocracy and disolution of USSR...
They have low number of flight hours on MiG-29 due to engine problems and most of them were coming from conversion training...
Advanced Dogfight/Aerobatics methods for fighter training was introduced on USSR on KBP IA-86 (Combat Training Course Fighter Aviation-86) and it was on big vigour back then, while if compared to western methods of ACT/ACM/DACT they were still behind, they were triyng to catch up, and that was what I was talking about...
Soviet pilots practiced group BVR combat tactics on sections and divisions, and even mixed tactics (MiG-23MLD and MiG-29) for both BVR and ACM...this was NOT the norm on the rest of countries that most flied MiG-21 variants with severly limited performance and tactical usefulness (and limitations inherited due to basic design) and short numbers of MiG-23 that the soviets never learnt to use appropiately only after Bekaa Valley letions were studied...
By: Sens
- 17th January 2006 at 16:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Absolute nonsense.. The pilot skills alone were never considered very important.. Main aspect was ability to learn.. The ex-GDR pilots were given a crash course in English and Western standards and teamwork and after that the most successful dozen were left through.
Potential to speak English fluently, absorb new methodology quickly and empathy towards new colleagues has obviously little to do with flying skills. Therefore, your 'best ex-GDR pilots' claim is totally misleading.
Source - Official Magazine of Bundeswehr - Infopost, (probably from 1995). Don't make me dig thru my old mags to get the exact issue..
Wrong, there was no real need nor shortage of pilots (till summer 1993 a complement of 30 pilots for the MiG-29s were to reach, when taking over the duty of air-policing in July 1993.). From the start the JG-73 was a mixed unit of MiG-29s/F-4F mod. (1993/94). The MiG-29 sqdn had pilots from both parts, because it took some time to bring the 24 MiG-29s back into real service. (Before those MiGs from former JG-3 were tested as 'Erprobungsgeschwader MiG-29' (Evulation-Wing MiG-29). Air policing was done from western units not to interfere with Russian fighter units still in the former GDR till those leave in the 90s.
Its main task was to prepare pilots for the EF to come and do the adversary training. The air-policing task was left to the F-4F mod. mostly after those arrived at Laage AB too.
By the way, which Slovak pilots are handpicked to fly the countries top-end fighter?!
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By: flex297
- 17th January 2006 at 17:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wrong, there was no real need nor shortage of pilots (till summer 1993 a complement of 30 pilots for the MiG-29s were to reach, when taking over the duty of air-policing in July 1993.). From the start the JG-73 was a mixed unit of MiG-29s/F-4F mod. (1993/94). The MiG-29 sqdn had pilots from both parts, because it took some time to bring the 24 MiG-29s back into real service. (Before those MiGs from former JG-3 were tested as 'Erprobungsgeschwader MiG-29' (Evulation-Wing MiG-29). Air policing was done from western units not to interfere with Russian fighter units still in the former GDR till those leave in the 90s.
Its main task was to prepare pilots for the EF to come and do the adversary training. The air-policing task was left to the F-4F mod. mostly after those arrived at Laage AB too.
By the way, which Slovak pilots are handpicked to fly the countries top-end fighter?!
Never said there was any shortage of pilots. Exactly vice versa, there were enough Wessies willing to ride the MiG so that the picking comission could go ruthlessly after ex-GDR pilots and kick em one after another.
In Slovakia the situation is simple.. MiG-29s are being flown by those who were left. After restructuralization of the armed forces many pilots left for civilian sector and joined the newly-formed low-budget airlines. Five months ago I was flying with EMBRAER EMB-120 Brasilia of SkyEurope Airlines flown by a certain Capt. Hruska (very probably ex-MiG-29-jock from Czech Republic) and he really gave the bus a ride! I have never experienced altering the course so tight and climbing so steep! And the landing was like falling to snow, easy and soft..
By: Sens
- 17th January 2006 at 18:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Never said there was any shortage of pilots. Exactly vice versa, there were enough Wessies willing to ride the MiG so that the picking comission could go ruthlessly after ex-GDR pilots and kick em one after another.
In Slovakia the situation is simple.. MiG-29s are being flown by those who were left. After restructuralization of the armed forces many pilots left for civilian sector and joined the newly-formed low-budget airlines. Five months ago I was flying with EMBRAER EMB-120 Brasilia of SkyEurope Airlines flown by a certain Capt. Hruska (very probably ex-MiG-29-jock from Czech Republic) and he really gave the bus a ride! I have never experienced altering the course so tight and climbing so steep! And the landing was like falling to snow, easy and soft..
So misunderstanding resolved. Nice flight, I experienced a similar one, when piloted by an ex. EAF pilot. Never experienced such bank-angles in a Boeing again and even without seatbelts, you were "nailed" in your seat.
By the way, the Czech handed their MiG-29s several years ago to Slovakia.
By: martinez
- 18th January 2006 at 09:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Looks like utterly little for 220 mil SKK per one aircraft to me.. Espcially during the era of a weak dollar.. Geez, for ten million dollars I would really expect at least radar upgrade! How come is that? Full spec SMT upgrade goes for slightly over $4 mil, IIRC.
AFAIK they spent around $4.5 million on each plane for modernization, I doubt that $4 million would be enough for full spec SMT. Well, maybe with cheap russian avionics, but we have the best US equipment available, although very expensive.....
By: martinez
- 18th January 2006 at 09:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
At least here we agree some way. We keep in mind, that Lipetzk was/is one of the better airfields and not in Sibiria. The max allowed technical lifetime by RSK for the MiG-29 stays at 4000 hours and 40 years in total. This include the changeover of many items already. Each of it had a specified lifetime to start from. When prolonged, it has to gain a new certification at first. That is not done for most, so you are still in need to replace it several times to reach the max allowed for the MiG-29 fuselage. When the production of new MiG-29s for India will start, items with a longer specified lifetime will come into use too. But this are no longer "cheap" SH examples with some upgrades to reach the "common" standard.
what items do you have in mind, basically there were not many items replaced on the airframe during the SLEP. You are probably messing that up with engine/aggregates overhaul. The airframe lifetime is 20years (2000h), the claimed 40 years(4000h) is after first prolongation, it can be followed by second one. It only depends on the aiframe condition and of course it`ll not be for free. The maintenance system has changed, there will be no prescheduled GO (general overhaul) in the future.
By: martinez
- 18th January 2006 at 10:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The article about east-german pilots is a typical "west" one, like those found on the codeonemagazine website. The writter used deliberately selected passages to emphasize the other's inferiority to meet his purposes. No doubt that the final objective was to make fun from pilots trained in soviet style of maneuvering and thinking, that they were lost or worthless without GCI support, were not capable to fight, to turn, to climb, to descent, to ignite afterburner, to brake, to switch on radar, to fire a missile, release undercarriage, to land, maybe even to get out from the plane, :D quite idiotic opinion and not based on thruth. Other example of the "absurdity" is the statement where a "reputedly experienced" mig-29 pilot confesses that he lost against the F-4 in ACM. He was defeated because he hadn`t been experienced, being a third class pilot or a rookie at that time and not because he employed soviet style of ACM. I was wondering, what magic maneuver the F-4 had used to tricks out the Mig-29? The Mig-29 can fly circles around the clumsy Phantom anytime and anywhere even with one engine cut off. ;) Remember that the F-16 is a dead meat too when it comes close. That is a proven thing.
Anyway, what others can we expect from a western source?
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By: flex297
- 18th January 2006 at 11:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By the way, the Czech handed their MiG-29s several years ago to Slovakia.
You are wrong, Sens, they have traded all ten remaining birds in a very controversal deal to Poland for eleven W-3 Sokol helicopters. That was 1994, I guess.
Slovakia had their MiG-29s in three batches, IIRC. The first batch was 9 export 9.12As and one 9.51 twinstick, the best chosen machines from ex-Czechoslovak stocks. (In return Slovakia has given up all MiG-23 versions). These were painted the four-tone brown/sand/green/dark green camo.
All other machines came directly from Russia and IMO were twelve normal 9.12s without any downgrade plus two another two 9.51s. These were painted the typical grey/green camo, albeit the 5304 UB has the green somewhat darker than usual and very faded red star outlines can still be visible.
Three birds are dead meat now, the #2022 (burned down after aborted t/o), #6829 white tiger and #6930 (crashed in a midair). All machines having been overhauled at LOT Trencin have new camouflage consisting of a very light grey and medium grey. All are ex-CSFR birds, the 9.51 trainer #4401, 9.12A #3709 and 9.12A #3911. I have been present with my camera during overhauls of the last two mentioned, that was good three or four years ago.. I am not aware of any other one undergoing overhaul.. Perhaps Martinez could elaborate?
(If some numbers are mixed up, sorry, I don't have my materials here and am writing just by heart)
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By: Harry - 17th January 2006 at 04:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A good point but never goes expounded. This is because the F-16A is the only version that has negative static stability (-0.02 SM ) whereas the F-16C actually is a stable aircraft with a static margin of +0.01 in subsonic and +0.26 in supersonic. The F-16C would naturally be easy meat for the MiG-29. Interestingly, the newer MiG-29M/K went the FBW way and if are pitch unstable, are even better.
All Mirage-2000 versions have negative static stability. They have to use ITR to their advantage and are extremely dangerous if allowed to do so and not spotted early. The MiG-29s can tear through them but their smoky engine gives them away and a highly trained pilot can spot them at almost 37 km away.
IAF MiG-29s had plenty of initial problems and had to go through several indigenous modifications after which they became top of the line. Their BVR capability is respected by all fighters which have DACT'ed against them. The problem is that they were never multirole, did'nt get the upgrade blocks of other contemporaries such as the F-16 and the newer versions did'nt find customers until recently.
Lets all not ignore the confirmed F-14A kill by an Iraqi MiG-29 during IPGW. Moldovian aircraft were also reportedly downed by MiG-29s. Their locks of F-16s during Kargil and an F-15 during IIPGW are also well known.
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 17th January 2006 at 09:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great to see how my claims gained from the pilots turn into technical arguments.. At least I know they were speaking truth! ;)
I have never heard of any F-14 kill by MiG-29. Do you have a source?
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By: martinez - 17th January 2006 at 09:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Lipetsk is one of the largest training centers in Russia with at least ten different type of aircrafts. That`s impossible to have a climatized shelter for each one and do not even think about it by a current AF budget. Some aircrafts have to be stored open. During a long stays or when the aircraft is out of service, the engines, gear-boxes, undercarriage, other moving parts should be conserved properly with oil and aircraft stored under a tarp. If maintained properly there aren`t problems with a harsh climate.
The commander of Lipetsk is of course aware that due to lack of funds, the maintenance has not always been sufficient, so while pointing at the "climate problem" he is probably trying to milden the fact that he wasn`t able to take care of his aircrafts.
"Without any problem" means that the airframe lifetime has large margins, thus the lifetime can be extended twice, three times,......
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By: Schorsch - 17th January 2006 at 09:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Please don't overuse this example. Areal combat is somehow a statistical thing and single examples don't prove anything (unfortunately something only few people understand). It just proves that it is possible.
I just wanted to underline that argueing on the stability margin and concluding that the less stable aircraft will surely win is BS. But I wrote that so many times and I am not in this forum for a long time.
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By: flex297 - 17th January 2006 at 10:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Looks like utterly little for 220 mil SKK per one aircraft to me.. Espcially during the era of a weak dollar.. Geez, for ten million dollars I would really expect at least radar upgrade! How come is that? Full spec SMT upgrade goes for slightly over $4 mil, IIRC.
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By: Sens - 17th January 2006 at 10:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
At least here we agree some way. We keep in mind, that Lipetzk was/is one of the better airfields and not in Sibiria. The max allowed technical lifetime by RSK for the MiG-29 stays at 4000 hours and 40 years in total. This include the changeover of many items already. Each of it had a specified lifetime to start from. When prolonged, it has to gain a new certification at first. That is not done for most, so you are still in need to replace it several times to reach the max allowed for the MiG-29 fuselage. When the production of new MiG-29s for India will start, items with a longer specified lifetime will come into use too. But this are no longer "cheap" SH examples with some upgrades to reach the "common" standard.
Posts: 675
By: Pit - 17th January 2006 at 15:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Harry:
I assume:
R-77 capability
New Indian RWR (please! post the pic again? same as for Su-30MKI?)...
What else?, GPS?, new comms?, ICAO-II certification equipment?...
Posts: 675
By: Pit - 17th January 2006 at 15:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Those were not trained even at soviet standard of ACM and BVR combat tactics and came from MiG-21M units...
Soviet trained air forces were very conservative in ACM training and lot of other things...situation was changing during mid-to late 80s, but disolution of USSR and burocrating environment never allowed full reforms to come afloat at a doctrinal (and not level-wise) sense...
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By: flex297 - 17th January 2006 at 15:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Indian upgrade..
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By: Sens - 17th January 2006 at 15:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wrong. Despite that, only the best ex. GDR pilots were kept. From several hundreds just a few dozen!
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 17th January 2006 at 15:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Absolute nonsense.. The pilot skills alone were never considered very important.. Main aspect was ability to learn.. The ex-GDR pilots were given a crash course in English and Western standards and teamwork and after that the most successful dozen were left through.
Potential to speak English fluently, absorb new methodology quickly and empathy towards new colleagues has obviously little to do with flying skills. Therefore, your 'best ex-GDR pilots' claim is totally misleading.
Source - Official Magazine of Bundeswehr - Infopost, (probably from 1995). Don't make me dig thru my old mags to get the exact issue..
Posts: 675
By: Pit - 17th January 2006 at 16:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, but those were "the best that surpassed and adapted to western methodology of ACM and Western tactics and fly methods", not "the best pilots out there"...
And my statement is not wrong from the because Zube (Andreas Zube the pilot that comment he was shot down by F-4F during ACM) told that BEFORE he went into western style ACM methods and so...
And those EG drivers were not up to task compared to lots of Soviet pilots that in some cases flew a lot more (150 hours or more) that asisted every 1.5 years to Mary Combat Training Center (for all FA fighter units) and that lived in an environment that was trying to "wake up" and introduced a lot of doctrinal reforms, but was never completed due to burocracy and disolution of USSR...
They have low number of flight hours on MiG-29 due to engine problems and most of them were coming from conversion training...
Advanced Dogfight/Aerobatics methods for fighter training was introduced on USSR on KBP IA-86 (Combat Training Course Fighter Aviation-86) and it was on big vigour back then, while if compared to western methods of ACT/ACM/DACT they were still behind, they were triyng to catch up, and that was what I was talking about...
Soviet pilots practiced group BVR combat tactics on sections and divisions, and even mixed tactics (MiG-23MLD and MiG-29) for both BVR and ACM...this was NOT the norm on the rest of countries that most flied MiG-21 variants with severly limited performance and tactical usefulness (and limitations inherited due to basic design) and short numbers of MiG-23 that the soviets never learnt to use appropiately only after Bekaa Valley letions were studied...
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 17th January 2006 at 16:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wrong, there was no real need nor shortage of pilots (till summer 1993 a complement of 30 pilots for the MiG-29s were to reach, when taking over the duty of air-policing in July 1993.). From the start the JG-73 was a mixed unit of MiG-29s/F-4F mod. (1993/94). The MiG-29 sqdn had pilots from both parts, because it took some time to bring the 24 MiG-29s back into real service. (Before those MiGs from former JG-3 were tested as 'Erprobungsgeschwader MiG-29' (Evulation-Wing MiG-29). Air policing was done from western units not to interfere with Russian fighter units still in the former GDR till those leave in the 90s.
Its main task was to prepare pilots for the EF to come and do the adversary training. The air-policing task was left to the F-4F mod. mostly after those arrived at Laage AB too.
By the way, which Slovak pilots are handpicked to fly the countries top-end fighter?!
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 17th January 2006 at 17:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Never said there was any shortage of pilots. Exactly vice versa, there were enough Wessies willing to ride the MiG so that the picking comission could go ruthlessly after ex-GDR pilots and kick em one after another.
In Slovakia the situation is simple.. MiG-29s are being flown by those who were left. After restructuralization of the armed forces many pilots left for civilian sector and joined the newly-formed low-budget airlines. Five months ago I was flying with EMBRAER EMB-120 Brasilia of SkyEurope Airlines flown by a certain Capt. Hruska (very probably ex-MiG-29-jock from Czech Republic) and he really gave the bus a ride! I have never experienced altering the course so tight and climbing so steep! And the landing was like falling to snow, easy and soft..
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By: SOC - 17th January 2006 at 17:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Put the pipe down, Harry :D
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By: Sens - 17th January 2006 at 18:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So misunderstanding resolved. Nice flight, I experienced a similar one, when piloted by an ex. EAF pilot. Never experienced such bank-angles in a Boeing again and even without seatbelts, you were "nailed" in your seat.
By the way, the Czech handed their MiG-29s several years ago to Slovakia.
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 18th January 2006 at 09:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
AFAIK they spent around $4.5 million on each plane for modernization, I doubt that $4 million would be enough for full spec SMT. Well, maybe with cheap russian avionics, but we have the best US equipment available, although very expensive.....
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By: martinez - 18th January 2006 at 09:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
what items do you have in mind, basically there were not many items replaced on the airframe during the SLEP. You are probably messing that up with engine/aggregates overhaul. The airframe lifetime is 20years (2000h), the claimed 40 years(4000h) is after first prolongation, it can be followed by second one. It only depends on the aiframe condition and of course it`ll not be for free. The maintenance system has changed, there will be no prescheduled GO (general overhaul) in the future.
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 18th January 2006 at 10:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The article about east-german pilots is a typical "west" one, like those found on the codeonemagazine website. The writter used deliberately selected passages to emphasize the other's inferiority to meet his purposes. No doubt that the final objective was to make fun from pilots trained in soviet style of maneuvering and thinking, that they were lost or worthless without GCI support, were not capable to fight, to turn, to climb, to descent, to ignite afterburner, to brake, to switch on radar, to fire a missile, release undercarriage, to land, maybe even to get out from the plane, :D quite idiotic opinion and not based on thruth. Other example of the "absurdity" is the statement where a "reputedly experienced" mig-29 pilot confesses that he lost against the F-4 in ACM. He was defeated because he hadn`t been experienced, being a third class pilot or a rookie at that time and not because he employed soviet style of ACM. I was wondering, what magic maneuver the F-4 had used to tricks out the Mig-29? The Mig-29 can fly circles around the clumsy Phantom anytime and anywhere even with one engine cut off. ;) Remember that the F-16 is a dead meat too when it comes close. That is a proven thing.
Anyway, what others can we expect from a western source?
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 18th January 2006 at 11:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You are wrong, Sens, they have traded all ten remaining birds in a very controversal deal to Poland for eleven W-3 Sokol helicopters. That was 1994, I guess.
Slovakia had their MiG-29s in three batches, IIRC. The first batch was 9 export 9.12As and one 9.51 twinstick, the best chosen machines from ex-Czechoslovak stocks. (In return Slovakia has given up all MiG-23 versions). These were painted the four-tone brown/sand/green/dark green camo.
All other machines came directly from Russia and IMO were twelve normal 9.12s without any downgrade plus two another two 9.51s. These were painted the typical grey/green camo, albeit the 5304 UB has the green somewhat darker than usual and very faded red star outlines can still be visible.
Three birds are dead meat now, the #2022 (burned down after aborted t/o), #6829 white tiger and #6930 (crashed in a midair). All machines having been overhauled at LOT Trencin have new camouflage consisting of a very light grey and medium grey. All are ex-CSFR birds, the 9.51 trainer #4401, 9.12A #3709 and 9.12A #3911. I have been present with my camera during overhauls of the last two mentioned, that was good three or four years ago.. I am not aware of any other one undergoing overhaul.. Perhaps Martinez could elaborate?
(If some numbers are mixed up, sorry, I don't have my materials here and am writing just by heart)