Forensics - Follow The Science

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WAS IT WAS A FOR THE OF OUR FOUNDING, GORDON PATEL BELIEVED IN BUILDING AN INSTITUTE THAT WOULD ACTUALLY BETTER SOCIETY THROUGH THE SCIENCE OF TECHNOLOGY.

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>> OONCHTS DR. FREDERIC, WELCOME TO QED WITH DR. B, LET'S TALK ABOUT SCIENCE.

>>> TODAY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FORENSICS, AND I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS BECAUSE I LOVE THOSE TRUE CRIME SHOWS, WHERE THE SMALLEST PIECE OF EVIDENCE BREAKS OPEN THIS HUGE CASE.

BUT DR. B, SOME OF OUR EXPERTS TALK ABOUT THIS THING CALLED THE CSI EFFECT, CAN YOU BREAK THAT DOWN FOR US?

>> SURE, THERE'S SO MUCH GREAT TELEVISION, DETECTIVE SHOWS, LAW ENFORCEMENT SHOWS AND THEY SHOW A LOT OF SCIENCE OUT THERE.

SO IT'S BEEN IN THE REGULAR COMMUNITY.

SO AVERAGE PEOPLE END UP BECOMING JURORS IN REAL LIFE, THINK THAT A LOT OF THAT STUFF IS ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE.

THEY'RE LOOKING FOR CUT AND DRY DATA, NO NONSENSE AND A LOT OF IT'S FICTION.

THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE TO SEPARATE THE FACTS FROM THE FICTION AND THAT'S WHEY WE'RE GOING TO EXPERTS ON THE MISSION OF THIS SHOW.

>> LATER ON WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE ADVANCES IN DNA IDENTIFICATION AND THEN THE RELIABILITY OF FIRSTHAND EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS.

BUT FIRST, DR. B, LET'S TALK ABOUT FINGERPRINTS.

WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT?

>> FINGERPRINTS IS A FASCINATING AREA TO STUDY.

WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THE LITTLE SWIRLS AND THAT'S COOL AND THAT IS ACTUALLY USED BUT IT'S SO MUCH DEEPERMENT THE SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION THAT IS POSITIONED ON EACH OF OUR FINGERTIPS IS OUTSTANDING.

TO DIVE A LITTLE DEEPER I TALKED TO SIMONA FRANCESE, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC AND BIOANALYTICAL MATH SPECTROMETRY AT SHEFFIELD HALLAM UNIVERSITY.

RESEARCH INDICATES THERE'S MORE TO FINGERPRINTS THAN JUST LINES AND SWIRLS.

WHAT KIND OF INFORMATION CAN WE GET FROM A SINGLE FINGERPRINT?

>> EVENTUALLY WHAT THE FINGERPRINT IS, IS THE VERSION OF -- AND SWEAT IS A BIOLOGICAL MATRIX.

SO THERE'S LOADS OF MOLECULES THERE.

BECAUSE THESE MOLECULES ARE SITTING THERE, YOU CAN DETECT THEM, AND THEY CAN TELL US STORIES ABOUT YOU.

AND SO WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO, IN THE TECHNOLOGY WE'VE DEVELOPED, GATHER INFORMATION ABOUT THE FIRST IMPRESSION.

SO YOUR SWEAT PROFILE ACTUALLY CHANGES DURING THE DAY.

IT CHANGES WHEN YOUR METABOLISM.

IT CHANGES WITH PHYSICAL EXERCISE.

IT CHANGES IF YOU ARE ANXIOUS OR SQUARED OR PREOCCUPIED ABOUT SOMETHING.

BUT WHAT IS INTERESTING IS MAYBE NOT THE OVERALL COMPOSITION OF YOUR SWEAT PROFILE, BUT WHAT CAN BE FOUND AT A PARTICULAR TIME WHEN YOU TAKE THAT FINGERPRINT AND ANALYZE IT, AND THERE ARE SOME MOLECULES THAT WE SAY THEY ARE PERSISTENT.

THEY CAN STILL BE DETECTED AFTER A LONG TIME.

>> WOW, THAT IS FASCINATING.

SO THE FINGERPRINT IS NOT JUST A SERIES OF SWIRLS AND GROOVES BUT IT'S REALLY LIKE A CHEMICAL CAPSULE OF STUFF INSIDE YOUR BODY.

WHAT TECHNOLOGY ARE YOU HARNESSING HERE?

>> SO THE TECHNOLOGY ISN'T NEW.

IT'S BEEN AROUND SINCE THE '80s, AND IT'S CALLED -- GOT A VERY LONG TIME.

NATE RIBS ASSISTED LASER EYE YO NATION -- MOLVE IN SHORT.

WITH THIS TECHNOLOGY YOU CAN DETECT MOLECULES AND YOU CAN ALSO VIESHLIZE THE MOLECULES.

AND BY USING A LASER AND FIRING THIS LASER, WHICH IS A UV LASER AND YOU FIRE ON THE SERVICE OF THE ITEM WHERE THE MOLECULES ARE SITTING, AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE LASER FIRES ON THE MOLECULE IS THAT THE MOLECULES COME OUT OF THAT SURFACE, AND THEN ABSORB.

WE ALSO CHARGE THESE MOLECULES, SO IT'S A DIFFERENT VERSION OF A MOLECULE.

WE CALL IT AN ION, WHICH BASICALLY IS A MOLECULE WITH A CHARGE.

AND WHAT IS INTERESTING HERE IS THAT BY MEASURING HOW MUCH THIS MOLECULE WEIGHS, WE CAN ACTUALLY LINK THE MOLECULAR WAY, OR THE MATH, OR THE WEIGHT TO THE IDENTITY OF THAT MOLECULE.

SO WE CAN LEARN WHAT THAT MOLECULE IS.

>> CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF HOW THIS TECHNOLOGY HAS ADVANCED FORENSIC RESEARCH THUS FAR?

>> IF YOU IMAGINE THE SCENARIO OF A -- THE ASSAILANT WEARS A CONDOM, THE SIMPLE ACTION OF HANDLING A CONDOM WOULD CONTAMINATE THE FINGERTIPS OF YOUR HAND WITH THE LUBRICANT AND THE POLYMER CONNECTS THERE.

YOU WILL LEAVE A FINGERPRINT, BUT NOT ONLY THAT, YOU WILL LEAVE A FINGERPRINT MADE IN THE CONDOM LUBRICANT.

THIS PARTICULAR FINGERPRINT CONTAINS THIS PARTICULAR POLYMER WHICH BELONGS TO A PARTICULAR CONDOM BRAND AND I CAN ALSO SHOW THAT THIS POLYMER IS DISTRIBUTED VERY WELL ALL AROUND THE FINGERPRINT, SO MUCH SO, THAT I CAN SEE A NEW TYPE OF A FINGERPRINT, WHICH IS A MOLECULAR IMAGE OF THE FINGERPRINT THROUGH THE POLYMER I'VE JUST DETECTED.

SO IF YOU -- BY WEARING A CONDOM, CAN'T ESCAPE JUSTICE BECAUSE THERE'S NO DNA LEFT BEHIND, WELL THAT FINGERPRINT NAILS HIM DOWN.

I CAN PROVIDE THE MOLECULAR INFORMATION, PLUS THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CRIME, LINKING HIM TO THE ACTUAL CRIME.

>> ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.

CAN YOU ALSO TALK TO ME ABOUT THIS KIND OF OVERLAPPING FINGERPRINT PHENOMENON?

>> HERE'S THE THING.

IF YOU IMAGINE A SCENARIO OF TWO PEOPLE TOUCHING A SURFACE IN A WAY THAT EVENTUALLY THE TWO FINGERPRINTS ARE OVERLAPPING, WELL WHAT WE CAN DO IS IF YOU IMAGINE THAT EACH FINGERPRINT IS MADE BY THOUSANDS OF MOLECULES, DO YOU NOT THINK IT'S LIKELY THAT AT LEAST ONE NOL CONSTITUTIONAL IS ONLY PRESENT IN YOUR FINGER MARK SO IT'S UNIQUE TO YOUR FINGER MARK AND I HAVE ANOTHER MOLECULE THAT'S UNIQUE TO MY FINGERPRINT.

SO THEN WHAT THE TECHNOLOGY CAN DO IS VISUALIZE THOSE UNIQUE MOLECULES ONE AT A TIME.

YOURS FIRST.

AND THAT MEANS THAT ONLY YOUR FINGER MARK SHOWS UP IN OUR SOFTWARE.

THEN MINE.

AND THEN MY FINGER MARK SHOWS UP ONLY IN OUR SOFTWARE.

AND IN ESSENCE YOU HAVE SEPARATED THE TWO PATTERNS, BECAUSE THOSE MOLECULES WILL BE UNIQUELY PRESENT IN ONE OR THE OTHER.

WE'VE TRIED THIS WITH SIX FINGERPRINTS, AND IT CAN SEE, YOU CAN SEPARATE ALL SIX FINGERPRINTS.

SO THERE IS AT LEAST ONE MOLECULE THAT'S UNIQUE TO YOURS, ALLOW US TO SEPARATE THE PATTERNS.

>> SO HOW ARE YOU HOPING THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY DEVELOPS?

>> I'M NOW AT A STAGE WHERE THIS TECHNOLOGY HAS BEEN INTEGRATED INTO THE FINGER MARK VISUALIZATION MANUAL, WHICH IS EDITED BY -- THE DEFENSE AND SCIENCES TECHNOLOGY LABORATORY AND THAT IS THE BIBLE THAT TELLS CSI, AND CRIME SCENE OPERATIONAL MANAGERS HOW TO DEAL WITH FINGERPRINT EVIDENCE.

NOW, THE REGISTRATION SYSTEM IS OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT IN EVERY COUNTRY THAT YOU LOOK AT.

SO TO GENERALIZE AND SAY HOW THIS CAN BE TRANSFERRED TO U.S., OR TO THE REST OF EUROPE, IT'S GOING TO BE QUITE DIFFICULT.

YOU HAVE TO BE LOOKED AT INDIVIDUALLY, EVEN HANDLING THE EVIDENCE IS DIFFERENT IN EACH COUNTRY.

OF COURSE I AM WORKING ON A GLOBAL SCALE AS WELL.

I DO HAVE INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS, AND SO ALTHOUGH THIS IS A LONG, SLOW JOURNEY, IT'S ONE THAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE END, AND MY HOPE IS THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY WILL BE USED IN MAJOR CRIMES.

>> SO DNA PROFILING HAS BECOME THE GOLDEN STANDARD FOR FORENSIC SCIENCE AND A LOT HAS CHANGED IN THE LAST 36 YEARS SINCE IT WAS FIRST USED AS EVIDENCE IN THE COURTROOM.

SO WHAT HAS BEEN THE NARRATIVE OF DNA EVIDENCE GATHERING THROUGHOUT THE YEARS?

IS IT FASTER, IS IT STRONGER, MORE RELIABLE?

>> YEAH, YOU NAILED IT, IT'S BEEN AROUND FOR 36 YEARS, AND REALLY THE HEART OF THE DNA ANALYSIS IS REALLY THE SUBJECT CALLED MOLECULAR BIOLOGY.

WE KNOW SO MUCH MORE ABOUT THE SCIENCE OF MOLECULAR BIOLOGY, IN VAST AND GREATER NUMBERS THE TECHNOLOGY IS REALLY AVAILABLE AND ACCESSIBLE.

WHAT IT DOES IS IT MAKES THINGS MUCH FASTER SO THE SEQUENCE DNA AND LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE, AND BECAUSE OF THE PROLIFERATION OF TECHNOLOGY IT'S ALSO MUCH CHEAPER SO NOW IT'S ACCESSIBLE FOR ALL LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> AND NOW THERE ARE NEWER, BIGGER DNA DATABASES THAT GATHER EVIDENCE FROM MULTIPLE CRIMES, CAN YOU TELL US MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> WE HEAR ABOUT BIG DATA ALL THE TIME IN SOCIETY AND REALLY THIS IS THE MASSIVE COMPUTATIONAL POWER THAT WE CAN NOW USE TO ANALYZE STUFF.

NOW WE APPLY THAT IN FORENSICS.

WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IS YOU'VE GONE FROM HAVING LOCAL DATABASES, TO CONNECTING NOW TO STATEWIDE DATABASES AND EVEN NATIONAL DATABASES.

SO PUTTING ALL THAT INFORMATION TOGETHER, LAW ENFORCEMENT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO REALLY PINPOINT DEEPLY, AND PRECISELY OF CERTAIN CRIMES.

AND FOR MORE ON THAT, I TALKED TO ABBY SCHWADERER, THE QUALITY ASSURANCE MANAGER AT THE OHIO BUREAU OF CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, RUN BY OHIO'S ATTORNEY GENERAL.

AS HUMANS, OUR DNA IS ROUGHLY 99.9% IDENTICAL AT THE GENETIC LEVEL.

CONSIDERING DNA IS MADE UP OF FOUR SETS OF LETTERS, A, C, T, ASK AND G, WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING WHEN YOU DO THIS DNA ANALYSIS.

>> WHAT THAT'S COMMONLY SO SHORTHAND REPEATS OR STR TESTING, AND THOSE BUILDING BLOCKS, THE A, C, T AND G, WE'RE LOOKING FOR SPECIFIC PATTERNS AND REPEATS OF THOSE BUILDING BLOCKS IN SOMEONE'S DNA.

THE REASON THAT FORENSIC SCIENTISTS LOOK AT IS HIGHLY DISCRIMINATING AND THAT DISCRIMINATION POWER -- WHEN WE'RE ANALYZING A CRIME SCENE.

>> WHAT'S THE POSSIBILITY FOR FALSE POSITIVES TO POP UP?

>> I'VE PERSONALLY REPORTED STATISTICS WHERE I WOULD EXPECT TO SEE THAT PROFILE ONE TIME AND FIVE QUINN TILLON INDIVIDUALS TESTED.

SO IT IS VERY ACCURATE.

THAT BEING SAID, WE'RE NOT TESTING THE ENTIRE GENOME OF DNA WITH EVERY FORENSIC CASE, THE POSSIBILITY EXISTS.

HOWEVER, VERY RARE.

>> THE SHARED AMOUNT OF DNA DATA THAT THE FBI HAS NOW, WHAT IS THIS DATABASE, AND HOW IS IT CHANGING THE WHOLE FIELD OF DNA EVIDENCE?

>> IT'S CALLED CODUS, WHICH STAND FOR COMBINED DNA SYSTEM, UTILIZED AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, THE STATE AND LOCAL LEVEL.

CRIME LABS CAN USE IT AS A TOOL TO SEARCH ELECTRONIC DNA PROFILE RECORDS, IT'S USED EVERY DAY TO IDENTIFY INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY HAVE LEFT THEIR DNA AT A CRIME SCENE AND ALSO TO POTENTIALLY LINK CASES TOGETHER.

>> WHAT ARE THE TYPES OF CASES THAT CODUS CAN HELP SOLVE?

>> CRIME LABS CAN PUT DNA PROFILES IN FROM ANYTHING RANGING FROM A PROPERTY CRIME TO A HOMICIDE CASE.

THAT'S THE POWER IN A DATABASE.

YOU MAY FIND SEVERAL PROPERTY CRIMES THAT ARE LINKED TOGETHER, AND THEN YEARS DOWN THE ROAD FIND THAT IT'S LINKED TO A HOMICIDE, OR EVEN A NAMED INDIVIDUAL AT THAT POINT.

REALLY HELPING TO MOVE THE INVESTIGATION ALONG FOR INVESTIGATORS.

>> TELL US ABOUT THE STEPHANIE HUMMER CASE.

>> STEPHANIE HUMMER WAS A STUDENT AT THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY BACK IN THE MID-'90s.

>> YEAH, I REMEMBER THIS CASE WELL.

IT WAS 1994.

STEPHANIE HUMMER WAS A BRIGHT OSU STUDENT WHO WAS ABDUCTED FROM CAMPUS, RAPED AND KILLED.

THE CASE SHOCKED THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY.

THE FBI DNA CODUS DATABASE DIDN'T EXIST.

THE CASE WENT COLD.

FAST FORWARD TO 2005, THE STATE EXPANDED ITS DNA DATABASE TO INCLUDE ALL FELONS AND PEOPLE CONVICTED OF 11 OF THE MOST SERIOUS MISDEMEANORS.

AND THAT'S WHEN THEY HAD A MATCH.

JONATHAN GRAVELY.

>> AND THEY WERE ABLE TO INVESTIGATE FURTHER AND EVENTUALLY LED TO A CONFESSION IN HER CASE.

>> SO SOME CRIMINALS ARE NOT FOUND BY A MATCH OF THEIR OWN DNA, BUT BY THEIR RELATIVE'S MATCH IN CODUS.

TELL US ABOUT THE JUSTIN CHRISTIAN CASE.

>> BACK IN 2016 A 6-YEAR-OLD WAS ABDUCTED AND ASSAULTED IN CLEVELAND.

>> HE OPENED HER BEDROOM WINDOW AND GRABBED HER BY HER LEGS.

HE TOLD HER TO COME WITH HIM AND IF HE SCREAMED HE WOULD KILL HER WHOLE FAMILY.

BUT SHE FOUGHT HIM OFF AND HE FLED.

LEAVING DNA ON THE LADDER HE USED TO GET TO THE WINDOW.

>> WE DID A SEARCH ON THE DATABASE BUT THERE WAS NO MATCH.

THIS WAS A GOOD CANDIDATE FOR SOMETHING CALLED FAMILIAL SEARCHING AT OUR LABORATORY.

THIS TYPE OF TESTS UTILIZES THE CODUS DATABASE BUT APPLIES A SEPARATE STATISTICAL -- RELATIVES WHO MIGHT BE RESIDING.

>> CHRISTIAN HAD A DECEASED BROTHER WHO HAD COMMITTED A QUALIFYING OFFENSE.

WHOSE DNA WAS -- >> THAT LED TO CHRISTIAN WHO HAD CAR AS HE STALKED THE VICTIM AND WAS CAUGHT ON SURVEILLANCE VIDEO.

JUSTIN CHRISTIAN HAS 35 YEARS TO THINK ABOUT A HIS CRIME, 35 YEARS WITH NO POSSIBILITY OF PAROLE, ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

>> YOU HEAR ABOUT THESE DNA TESTING SITES LIKE ANCESTRY.COM, OR 23 AND ME, DO THEY USE KIND OF THE CODUS TYPE PROCESS?

>> AT HOME GENETICS TESTING COMPANIES RELY ON DNA DATA, JUST LIKE THE CODUS SITE DOES.

THE TYPES OF TEST THEY'RE USING IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.

THE DIFFERENCE THERE IS TYPE OF INFORMATION THAT'S GETTING OUT OF THE TESTS.

WITH CODUS WE'RE LOOKING FOR EXACT MATCHES, TRYING TO IDENTIFY INDIVIDUALS UNIQUELY.

WHEREAS WITH THESE AT HOME GENETIC TESTING COMPANIES, THEY'RE LOOKING FOR A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT QUESTION.

WHAT IS YOUR HERITAGE?

WHAT TYPE OF TRAITS DOES YOUR DNA EXHIBIT THAT MIGHT HAVE POTENTIAL, YOU KNOW, HEALTH CONCERNS DOWN THE ROAD?

>> HAS THERE EVER BEEN A CASE WHERE INFORMATION FROM 23 AND ME, OR ANCESTRY.COM WAS USED TO SOLVE A CASE?

>> I DO KNOW THAT IT HAPPENS, AND WITH MORE AND MORE COLD CASE INVESTIGATIONS I KNOW THAT'S A TOOL THAT'S AVAILABLE TO LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> WHAT'S ON THE HORIZON OF DNA TESTING AND HOW MUCH DETAIL CAN WE GET FROM NEW TECHNOLOGIES?

>> THERE'S A NEW METHOD CALLED NEXT GENERATION DNA TESTING AND BY USING THIS NEXT GENERATION TESTING, THEY'RE ABLE TO PROVIDE A PORTRAIT OF WHAT THE INDIVIDUAL MIGHT LOOK LIKE BASED OFF OF THEIR DNA.

SO THAT IS A VERY POWERFUL TOOL IN AND OF ITSELF TO BE ABLE TO TAKE SOME UNKNOWN PROFILE AND PROVIDE A PICTURE OR AN IMAGE OF WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK LIKE.

>>> DR. B, IN EVERY GREAT COURTROOM DRAMA THERE'S THAT MOMENT WHEN THE EYEWITNESS IDENTIFIES THE GUILTY PARTY.

BUT HAVE WE REALLY STUDIED EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY?

I GUESS COMPARED TO DNA AND FINGERPRINTS, MEMORY SEEMS KIND OF HARD TO QUANTIFY.

>> SO FUNNY YOU SAY THAT.

EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY IS SO VERY IMPORTANT.

TIME AND TIME AGAIN JURIES ARE REALLY IMPRESSED BY THE CONFIDENCE AND THE STRENGTHS THAT EYEWITNESSES BRING TO THE TABLE.

BUT EXPERTS ARE NOW STUDYING EYEWITNESS EVIDENCE TO ENSURE THAT'S BEING USED IN BEST WAY POSSIBLE.

FOR MORE ON THAT I SPOKE TO DR. GARY WELLS, DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR OF EXPERIMENTAL SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY AT IOWA STATE UNIVERSITY.

SCIENTIFICALLY SPEAKING HOW RELIABLE ARE OUR MEMORIES, AND WHAT IMPACTS WHETHER WE REMEMBER SOMETHING ACCURATELY, OR NOT?

>> RIGHT.

WELL, I MEAN, MEMORIES CAN BE A HIGHLY RELIABLE, BUT THEY CAN ALSO BE HIGHLY UNRELIABLE AT TIMES.

THERE'S REALLY THREE THINGS THAT HAVE TO HAPPEN IN ORDER TO HAVE A RELIABLE MEMORY, THERE'S THREE SORT OF PHASES OR STAGES, ONE IS ACQUISITION OR ENCODING.

YOU HAVE TO BRING THE INFORMATION IN, AND ENCODE IT.

SECOND, YOU HAVE TO RETAIN IT IN ITS ORIGINAL STATE.

AND THEN YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO RETRIEVE IT.

AND SOMETHING THAT DISRUPTS ANY ONE OF THOSE THREE STAGES PRODUCES A PROBLEM WITH MEMORY.

>> SO HOW MUCH DO COURTS TODAY KNOWING WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT MEMORY RELY ON EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS?

>> WELL, COURTS HAVE ALWAYS RELIED A LOT ON EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS AND THEY STILL DO TODAY.

MOST ALL TRIALS, CERTAINLY CRIMINAL TRIALS ARE ATTEMPTS TO RECONSTRUCTION THE PAST.

WHAT HAPPENED ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY OR THIS PARTICULAR TIME?

ONE PERSON AFTER ANOTHER ENDS UP TAKING THE STAND, AND USING MEMORY, TO TRY TO REPORT ON THINGS THAT WOULD HELP TO RECONSTRUCT IT.

EYEWITNESS IDENTIFICATION, IDENTIFYING A PERSON THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN COMMITTING A CRIME, IS STILL A VERY CORE AND STAPLE FORM OF EVIDENCE IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

>> SO DO EYEWITNESSES GET IT WRONG?

>> WELL, THEY DEFINITELY DO GET IT WRONG.

AND WITH THE FREQUENCY THAT I THINK HAS COME ALONG TO REALLY SHOCK THE SYSTEM, MISTAKEN EYEWITNESS IDENTIFICATION IS ACCOUNTING FOR A LOT OF THE DNA EXONERATIONS.

IN OTHER WORDS, WE NOW HAVE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF THESE EXONERATIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO WERE CONVICTED BY JURIES OF CRIMES THEY DID NOT COMMIT, SERIOUS CRIMES, SOME WERE SENTENCED TO DEATH ROW EVEN, OR LIFE SENTENCES.

AND THEN ULTIMATELY WERE EXONERATED BASED ON FORENSIC DNA TESTING.

OVER 70% OF THOSE CASES ARE CASES INVOLVING MISTAKEN EYEWITNESS IDENTIFICATION.

WE'VE MADE A LOT OF PROGRESS IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS.

WHAT WE'VE DONE IS WE'VE GONE AND WORKED WITH POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN VARIOUS JURISDICTIONS, BOTH IN THE U.S. AND IN GREAT BRITAIN.

AND WE BASICALLY TRACK EVERY LINEUP THAT THEY DO.

AND IT TURNS OUT THAT ONE OUT OF EVERY FOUR TIMES THAT A WITNESS VIEWS A LINEUP, THEY PECK AN INNOCENT FILLER, SOMEONE PUT IN THE LINEUP JUST TO BE A FILLER, WE KNOW THEY DIDN'T DO IT.

SO WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS LIKE, HOW OFTEN DO THEY MISTAKE AND PICK ON SOMEONE WE KNOW DIDN'T DO IT?

>> IF WE KNOW ALL OF THIS, WHY DO WE STILL USE EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS IF THEY TEND TO BE SO UNRELIABLE?

>> EYEWITNESS EVIDENCE IS REALLY -- IT'S IMPORTANT.

IF WE DON'T USE IT AT ALL, IF WE SAY, OKAY, EYEWITNESSES ARE TOO UNRELIABLE TO USE IT'S A LOT OF -- TO PERPETRATORS.

IMAGINE YOUR PERPETRATOR AND THE ONLY WITNESS IS YOUR VICTIM AND THEY CAN'T TRUST THE VICTIM.

SO WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING IS WORKING ON HOW DO WE MAKE THIS EVIDENCE MORE RELIABLE?

THINK ABOUT HOW FORENSIC SCIENCE IS SUPPOSED TO WORK, WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU TAKE TRACE EVIDENCE, RIGHT, TRACE EVIDENCE IS SOMETHING THAT THE PERPETRATOR LEFT BEHIND AT THE SCENE OF THE CRIME.

THAT CAN HELP DETERMINE THE IDENTITY OF THE PERPETRATOR.

WELL, IN THE CASE OF EYEWITNESS EVIDENCE WE NEED TO START THINKING OF IT AS IF IT WERE MORE LIKE TRACE EVIDENCE, THAT IS, THE PERPETRATOR LEFT SOMETHING BEHIND AT THE SCENE OF THE CRIME.

IT'S IN THE MIND OR BRAIN OF THE EYEWITNESS, BUT STILL THERE'S A TRACE.

NOW, HOW DO WE GET THAT TRACE OUT, WITHOUT CONTAMINATING IT, AND SO WE NEED TO START RESPECTING THE IDEA THAT YOU QUESTIONS AT A WITNESS THAT YOU REALLY NEED A PROTOCOL.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE TRIED TO DEVELOP IS A PROTOCOL FOR HANDLING EYEWITNESSES AND HOW DO YOU QUESTION THEM, HOW DO YOU INTERVIEW THEM?

HOW YOU CONDUCT LINEUPS, HOW YOU MAKE RECORDS OF ALL THIS, AND SO ON.

WE'VE GENERATED VARIOUS RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THE LEGAL SYSTEM, AND LAW ENFORCEMENT IN PARTICULAR ABOUT HOW THEY NEED TO CONDUCT THEIR LINEUPS.

IF YOU TAKE AN EYEWITNESS, AND THEY MAKE A MISTAKEN ID, WHEN THEY MAKE WRONG PICKS, WE'VE LONG KNOWN THAT THEY'RE REALLY NOT VERY CONFIDENT IN IT.

THEY'RE NOT VERY SURE.

BUT WITH ONLY THE SLIGHTEST NUDGE, LIKE, OH, GOOD, YOU PICKED THE SUSPECT.

ALMOST IMMEDIATELY THEY BEGIN TO RECONSTRUCT THE WHOLE THING.

THEY BECOME THIS HIGHLY CONVINCING, POWERFUL, CONFIDENT WITNESS, JUST FROM A NUDGE.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE PERSON WHO ADMINISTERS THE LINEUP, AND ANYBODY ELSE IN THAT ROOM, SHOULD NOT KNOW WHICH PERSON IS THE SUSPECT, AND WHICH ONES ARE FILLERS.

SO THAT THEY CAN'T CUE THE WITNESS.

AND WHEN THE WITNESS PICKS SOMEBODY, THEY CAN'T NUDGE THEM OR REENFORCE THEM OR SAY, OH, THAT WAS THE GUY ALL RIGHT, AND INSTEAD, WHAT HAPPENS IMMEDIATELY IS YOU ASK THE WITNESS FOR THEIR STATEMENT.

HOW SURE ARE YOU?

WE ACTUALLY HAVE NINE LARGE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WE'VE MADE.

ONE OF THEM, FOR EXAMPLE, IS THAT THE ENTIRE IDENTIFICATION PROCEDURE BE VIDEOTAPED SO LET THE JURY SEE THAT THIS WITNESS WAS SHAKY AT THE TIME.

LET THE JURY WONDER HOW DOES A WITNESS GO FROM BEING SHAKY TO BEING POSITIVE?

AND IT WILL NEVER BE PERFECT, BUT IT'S A GREAT IMPROVEMENT.

>>> SO MY TAKEAWAY FROM TODAY'S SHOW IS THAT FORENSIC EVIDENCE AND THE ADVANCES IN IT IS BECOMING PRETTY CLOSE TO MORE THAN WE CAN EVEN IMAGINE.

BUT IT REALLY STILL BOILS DOWN TO HAVING A SINGLE PIECE OF F EVIDENCE.

IC THAT'S WHEY IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO KEEP STUDYING IT WHAT ABOUT YOU?

>> DIANA, YOU ARE SO RIGHT, WE'VE COME SUCH A WAY.

LIKE EVERY OTHER FIELD, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY HAVE IMPACTED FORENSICS TO ALLOW US TO BETTER SOLVE THESE COMPLICATED CRIMES.

AND THAT'S QED WITH DR. B, THAT'S ME, FIND US ON TWITTER, INSTAGRAM AND FACEBOOK.

AND WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME!

>> OUR BETTER DATA COME FROM LABORATORY STUDIES.

BECAUSE WE CAN CONTROL A LOT MORE THINGS.

SO WE CREATE EVENTS THAT PEOPLE WITNESS, AND THEN WE PUT TOGETHER LINEUPS, AND HAVE THEM TRY TO IDENTIFY THE PERSON FROM A LINEUP.

WHAT WE FIND IS THAT, FIRST OF ALL, THE COMMON CONCERN THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE AREN'T SURPRISED WHEN WE POINT OUT THIS FINDING, THAT THE ABILITY TO IDENTIFY SOMEONE OF ANOTHER RACE THAN YOURSELF, WE MAKE MORE MISTAKES, THAN ON OUR OWN RACE.

AND THAT'S TRUE, NOT JUST FOR LET'S SAY WHITE AMERICANS IDENTIFYING, YOU KNOW, AFRICAN AMERICANS, BUT ALSO FOR HISPANICS, ASIANS.

ANYONE WHO'S NOT A MEMBER OF YOUR GROUP, IT'S ALSO SLIGHTLY TRUE FOR AGE.

SO YOUNG PEOPLE ARE BETTER ABLE TO IDENTIFY ANOTHER YOUNG PERSON THAN THEY ARE AN OLDER PERSON.

AND TO A SLIGHT EXTENT, ALSO GENDER.

SO FEMALES ARE SOMEWHAT BETTER WITH OTHER FEMALES THAN THEY ARE WITH MALES, AND MALES BETTER WITH OTHER MALES THAN FEMALES.

BUT THE BIGGEST EFFECT THERE IS PROBABLY THE RACE, OR EVEN NOT JUST RACE, ETHNICITY.

>>> PRODUCTION FUNDING FOR QED WITH DOCTOR, B IS PROVIDED BY -- >> PATEL CARES ABOUT S.T.E.M., IT WAS PART OF OUR FOUNDING.

OUR FOUNDER WLOOEFD IN BUILDING AN INSTITUTE THAT WOULD ACTUALLY BETTER SOCIETY THROUGH THE USE OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.

AND THIS YEAR WE'RE GOING TO HIT A GOAL OF A MILLION STUDENTS A YEAR THAT WE'LL BE ABLE TO IMPACT AROUND THE COUNTRY.

>> AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWER FOUNDATION, BOUNDLESS ENERGY FOR BRIGHTER FUTURES.

>>> AND BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.